Discussion:
OT. Flores Man
(too old to reply)
Quentin Grady
2004-10-30 05:07:23 UTC
Permalink
G'day G'day Folks,

Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative of humans
was discovered in the Indonesian Island of Flores in 2003. The
suggestion is these hobbit like creatures had the use of tools and
fire and that a volcano some 12 thousand years ago wiped them out.
Will it all turn out to be an elaborate hoax? While it doesn't seem so
... I do recall a "lost tribe" that wasn't.

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041025/full/041025-3.html
http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041025/full/041025-4.html

What I find amazing is how rapidly people have taken up the reports to
push their own political and religious agendas

Whatever.

While looking for Flores Man on Google I came across Google Alerts
which I hadn't used before. I guess that doesn't amount to much in
the scheme of things but it did remind me of the English research that
suggested folks became healthier when they deliberately moved out of
their ruts.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Chris Malcolm
2004-10-30 07:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
While looking for Flores Man on Google I came across Google Alerts
which I hadn't used before. I guess that doesn't amount to much in
the scheme of things but it did remind me of the English research that
suggested folks became healthier when they deliberately moved out of
their ruts.
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Quentin Grady
2004-10-30 08:15:41 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Quentin Grady
While looking for Flores Man on Google I came across Google Alerts
which I hadn't used before. I guess that doesn't amount to much in
the scheme of things but it did remind me of the English research that
suggested folks became healthier when they deliberately moved out of
their ruts.
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
G'day G'day Chris,

It wouldn't surprise me if eccentrics did live longer, healthier
lives. A hypothesis that I have found personally tenable is that
people rapidly decline in health when their lives become boring.

If you think about eccentrics there are a couple of ways it which such
behaviour might lead to less boring lives. Firstly they are rather
more likely to be discovering something new, real or imagined and that
would stop them being bored. Secondly eccentrics are more likely
attract the attention of other albeit often negative attention but
attention never the less. If one takes Viktor Frankl's logotherapy
serious ... and I happen to ... then about the only absolutely
essential emotional requirement for life is that one finds meaning in
it ... eccentrics have it made. They find meaning in what they do and
they can be sure that they have some unfinished scrap or other get
them up and pumping each day.

Best wishes and thanks.
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Priscilla Ballou
2004-10-30 14:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Quentin Grady
While looking for Flores Man on Google I came across Google Alerts
which I hadn't used before. I guess that doesn't amount to much in
the scheme of things but it did remind me of the English research that
suggested folks became healthier when they deliberately moved out of
their ruts.
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
Woo hoo! I've always marched to the beat of a different drummer myself.
Nice to know it's good for my health! ;-)

Priscilla
None Given
2004-10-30 15:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
I doubt it's the trying to be normal that is bad for you, it's the worry
that people will find out you're not normal that has health consequences.
Nan Eklund
2004-10-30 18:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be o.k.
Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.

Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived at the
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.

Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Priscilla Ballou
2004-10-30 19:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nan Eklund
Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be o.k.
Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.
I was just talking to someone today about my plans for when I retire (14
years from now -- Social Security and stock market willing). Once I
don't have to put time into income-producing activities, I want to get
going with tutoring kids in reading and/or working in adult literacy.
In my view, retirement is when you get to focus on your interests rather
than on your necessities.
Post by Nan Eklund
Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived at the
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.
Nice thought, but they were pretty isolated, weren't they?

Priscilla
W. Baker
2004-10-31 01:42:57 UTC
Permalink
Priscilla Ballou <***@verizon.net> wrote:
: In article <***@mb-m29.aol.com>,
: ***@aol.com (Nan Eklund) wrote:

: > Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
: > Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be
: > o.k.
: > Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.

: I was just talking to someone today about my plans for when I retire (14
: years from now -- Social Security and stock market willing). Once I
: don't have to put time into income-producing activities, I want to get
: going with tutoring kids in reading and/or working in adult literacy.
: In my view, retirement is when you get to focus on your interests rather
: than on your necessities.

Priscilla, yu are right about retirement. THat is what I have done with
mine. I take clases in some subjects I have always been interested in and
am a very active volunteer, running food and clothing drives at my
synagogue, as well as working at a local foodbank in the summer when I go
to upstate New York. I am buy with school tw days a week and the drives
are occasional big flurries of work and inbetween, My husband and I enjoy
doing things together. He, considerabley older than I at 83, still takes
some classes and works at playing the recorder. As a retired trumpet
player he has the patience to sit and work out the difficult fingerings ,
etc. He also performs as part of religious services during the summer. I
had been afraid of retirement, but find it most satisfactory:-)

Sometimes I wonder if I should take a typing course, or, perhaps, I am
just to hasty and visually challanged to edit properly.

Wendy
Chris Malcolm
2004-10-31 10:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Priscilla Ballou
Post by Nan Eklund
Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived at the
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.
Nice thought, but they were pretty isolated, weren't they?
It's pretty difficult finding human remains from the early days when
there weren't many of us. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me if
there were many different kinds of man, and apeman, in those days,
some of them less numerous than us, and evolutionary dead ends who
happened to die out. I'm sure our ancestors helped some of them to die
out. We are amazingly savage and efficient killers of people who are
Not Like Us. The idea of being Nice to the Natives is a very recent
idea in terms of human history, and it still hasn't caught on too well
in some places.

Our current position where there's such a gap between us and our near
bioliogical relatives with no variant forms in the gap is rather
biologically anomalous. My guess would be that that gap was
historically populated, but we simply haven't found the bones of those
ancient near-men yet.

I expect there were giants, dwarves, elves, etc..

It saddens me. We have so much to learn about our own mysteries from
people who are Not Like Us.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Budd Cochran
2004-10-30 20:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nan Eklund
Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be o.k.
Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.
Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived at the
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Back when I was young, healthy and handsome (sorta), I took a job with a
muffler factory and within a year had been accepted into the factory's
maintenance (millwright) apprenticeship program. About that time, two
gentlemen retired from that department. One said" I've done enough", and sat
on his porch and watched the world go by. The other opened a small engine
repair shop with a unique sign on the door. One side said, "OPEN", the other
said "Gone Fishing".

The first gentleman died of a heart attack after six months, the other was
still going strong into his 80's.

If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?

Budd
Alan
2004-10-30 23:07:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:42:17 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Nan Eklund
Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be
o.k.
Post by Nan Eklund
Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.
Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived
at the
Post by Nan Eklund
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Back when I was young, healthy and handsome (sorta), I took a job with a
muffler factory and within a year had been accepted into the factory's
maintenance (millwright) apprenticeship program. About that time, two
gentlemen retired from that department. One said" I've done enough", and sat
on his porch and watched the world go by. The other opened a small engine
repair shop with a unique sign on the door. One side said, "OPEN", the other
said "Gone Fishing".
The first gentleman died of a heart attack after six months, the other was
still going strong into his 80's.
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
Budd
Considering that Flores Man was found in Indonesia, the dragons are
still there - Komodo Dragons.
http://www.bali-travel-online.com/komodo_island/fauna.htm

Cheers, Alan
--
Quentin Grady
2004-10-30 23:18:26 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:07:41 +1000, Alan
Post by Alan
Post by Budd Cochran
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
Budd
Considering that Flores Man was found in Indonesia, the dragons are
still there - Komodo Dragons.
http://www.bali-travel-online.com/komodo_island/fauna.htm
Cheers, Alan
G'day G'day Alan et al,

Flores Island is more like an of shore island for Australia. It is
isolated. If the conjectures that Flores Man is an offshoot of homo
erectus are confirmed then they owe their survival to isolation. The
presence of homo sapiens near by tended to be the death knell for
other hominids. Neanderthal man is thought to have been individually
brighter and more cold resistant than Homo sapiens yet no genetic
trace of Neanderthal remains in the population of Europe.

Flores man poses many puzzles if the reports about them are true.
Their brain was the size of a chimps more like Austropithicus.
(My wild thought for the day is that they are more closely related to
Austropithicus than Homo Erectus.) Yet they appear to have made and
used weapons and fire. Brain size stays more constant than body size.

Some have argued that they must have been advanced in using tools to
have made craft to make the crossing from Asia to Flores. The small
statue is supposed part of a general phenomenon that frequently occurs
when animals become isolated on islands. (Elephants on Crete became
dog sized in about 5000 years) There were pony sized relatives
elephants on Flores. My guess is the elephants didn't have to be
sophisticated tool builders to reach Flores and neither did Flores
man. Each hypothesis seems only to create more puzzles than it
solves. There were giant rodents on the island. Komodo dragons and
some other giant lizards are fierce WHEN WARMED UP. The big advantage
of warm blooded killers is that they get a head start in the morning.
The early hobbit gets the komodo while the world rushes past faster
than it can see. With such a plentiful food supply I can quite see
how the small size becomes an advantage. When food is scarce and
widely distributed being small lets one search over more territory and
subsist on small portions.

BTW. What do you think the chances are someone will extract a bit of
rDNA from Flores man or women combine it with a retrovirus and use it
to "cure" obesity? <grin>

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Budd Cochran
2004-10-31 15:01:48 UTC
Permalink
True, but they are merely large lizards with bad breath and a poor attitude.
<BG>

I was talking about the classic dragons of, say, Chinese lore, which often
has been found to be rather truthful, that fly, have bad breath and have a
bad attitude. A Pterodactyl could fill that description easily.

I'm just trying to make the point that so many times in our recent past we
have been deceived by hoaxes like the Piltdown Man, and scientists have
ignored evidence contrary to popular theory like the lack of erosion
evidence in sedimentary rocks, and suppressed evidence that could topple
evolution from its pedestal like the canyon carving that happened at Mt. St
Helens after the eruption melted millions of tons of snow.

IOW, don't take too much faith in what "scientists" claim as evidence. Often
it's just a another wild guess with no scientific support
--
Budd
Post by Alan
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:42:17 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Nan Eklund
Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be
o.k.
Post by Nan Eklund
Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.
Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived
at the
Post by Nan Eklund
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Back when I was young, healthy and handsome (sorta), I took a job with a
muffler factory and within a year had been accepted into the factory's
maintenance (millwright) apprenticeship program. About that time, two
gentlemen retired from that department. One said" I've done enough", and sat
on his porch and watched the world go by. The other opened a small engine
repair shop with a unique sign on the door. One side said, "OPEN", the other
said "Gone Fishing".
The first gentleman died of a heart attack after six months, the other was
still going strong into his 80's.
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
Budd
Considering that Flores Man was found in Indonesia, the dragons are
still there - Komodo Dragons.
http://www.bali-travel-online.com/komodo_island/fauna.htm
Cheers, Alan
--
Nan Eklund
2004-10-31 19:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
According to the Nat Geog article, Flores Island also had dwarfed Komodo
dragons.
Some say the full sized Komodos were the source of the "mythical" dragons.
And bones of certain dinosaurs were the source of giants since the early men
didn't know about dinosaurs.
Nan, Type 2

Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Budd Cochran
2004-10-31 19:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by Budd Cochran
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
According to the Nat Geog article, Flores Island also had dwarfed Komodo
dragons.
Some say the full sized Komodos were the source of the "mythical" dragons.
And bones of certain dinosaurs were the source of giants since the early men
didn't know about dinosaurs.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
As I mentioned to Alan, I was referring to the "common" flying dragon of the
Chinese, the Japanese, the Tibetians, Indians ( both East and American), the
Hebrews, the Celts, the Germanics, etc. Nearly all the peoples of the Earth
have flying dragons in their lore.

I've read the claims of Komodos being the source, but why are there no
Komodo fossils in, say, Britain, if they were there???

The bones of dinosaurs have been found on the same levels as human bones,
footprints in the mud on the same geological levels. Something doesn't jive
in these theories, folks.

Budd
k***@dslextreme.com
2004-10-31 20:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by Budd Cochran
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the
"elves",
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by Budd Cochran
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
According to the Nat Geog article, Flores Island also had dwarfed Komodo
dragons.
Some say the full sized Komodos were the source of the "mythical"
dragons.
Post by Nan Eklund
And bones of certain dinosaurs were the source of giants since the early
men
Post by Nan Eklund
didn't know about dinosaurs.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
As I mentioned to Alan, I was referring to the "common" flying dragon of the
Chinese, the Japanese, the Tibetians, Indians ( both East and American), the
Hebrews, the Celts, the Germanics, etc. Nearly all the peoples of the Earth
have flying dragons in their lore.
I've read the claims of Komodos being the source, but why are there no
Komodo fossils in, say, Britain, if they were there???
The bones of dinosaurs have been found on the same levels as human bones,
footprints in the mud on the same geological levels. Something doesn't jive
in these theories, folks.
Budd
In the Holy Bible it shows how man lived along with the Dinosaurs.
There are prints of these animals and men walking together in 'Texas.
As the Bible shows us we have only been on this earth for around 5000
years there is no doubt they coexisted.
The Center for Creation Research in San Diego has many books on the
subject available for a nominal fee.
Budd Cochran
2004-11-01 00:08:26 UTC
Permalink
You haven't been around here long, have you?
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
Post by Budd Cochran
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by Budd Cochran
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the
"elves",
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by Budd Cochran
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
According to the Nat Geog article, Flores Island also had dwarfed Komodo
dragons.
Some say the full sized Komodos were the source of the "mythical"
dragons.
Post by Nan Eklund
And bones of certain dinosaurs were the source of giants since the early
men
Post by Nan Eklund
didn't know about dinosaurs.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
As I mentioned to Alan, I was referring to the "common" flying dragon of the
Chinese, the Japanese, the Tibetians, Indians ( both East and American), the
Hebrews, the Celts, the Germanics, etc. Nearly all the peoples of the Earth
have flying dragons in their lore.
I've read the claims of Komodos being the source, but why are there no
Komodo fossils in, say, Britain, if they were there???
The bones of dinosaurs have been found on the same levels as human bones,
footprints in the mud on the same geological levels. Something doesn't jive
in these theories, folks.
Budd
In the Holy Bible it shows how man lived along with the Dinosaurs.
There are prints of these animals and men walking together in 'Texas.
As the Bible shows us we have only been on this earth for around 5000
years there is no doubt they coexisted.
The Center for Creation Research in San Diego has many books on the
subject available for a nominal fee.
Dennis Rekuta
2004-11-02 04:02:02 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Budd Cochran
The bones of dinosaurs have been found on the same levels as human bones,
footprints in the mud on the same geological levels. Something doesn't jive
in these theories, folks.
Budd
In the Holy Bible it shows how man lived along with the Dinosaurs. There
are prints of these animals and men walking together in 'Texas.
As the Bible shows us we have only been on this earth for around 5000
years there is no doubt they coexisted.
The Center for Creation Research in San Diego has many books on the
subject available for a nominal fee.
When bald faced lies amount to all of the evidence that "Creationists"
can muster, do you wonder why the rest of the world thinks people like
you two are nothing but religious fanatics? You ignore all evidence of
reality to fit the figments of your imagination.

The "man walking with dinosaurs" was dreamed up in the late 1980's, and
at the time, even the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) didn't want
to endorse it.

Just a few web sites to refute this pack of lies:

Retracking Those Incredible Man Tracks
http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/retrack.htm

The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy
http://tinyurl.com/4mc7t

To refute the entire Creationism Crock
About.com Against Creationism
http://geology.about.com/od/creationism_not/

Let's not hear about how you are persecuted for your faith. Anybody who
believes in the Bible LITERALLY WORD FOR WORD ignores the fact that the
teachers of the Old Testament and Jesus himself always used allegory
and parables. Your brand of fanaticism is about as Christian as the
Taliban or Wadi are true followers of Islam. Like Marxist-Lennonists,
you don't mind lying to and misinforming us non-believers, because the
end justifies the means, and we are just dupes as far as you are concerned.

Dennis (Type 2)
--
-- "We can't help it. We're men" The Red Green Show.
Budd Cochran
2004-11-02 05:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Rekuta
<snip>
Post by Budd Cochran
The bones of dinosaurs have been found on the same levels as human bones,
footprints in the mud on the same geological levels. Something doesn't jive
in these theories, folks.
Budd
In the Holy Bible it shows how man lived along with the Dinosaurs. There
are prints of these animals and men walking together in 'Texas.
As the Bible shows us we have only been on this earth for around 5000
years there is no doubt they coexisted.
The Center for Creation Research in San Diego has many books on the
subject available for a nominal fee.
When bald faced lies amount to all of the evidence that "Creationists"
can muster, do you wonder why the rest of the world thinks people like
you two are nothing but religious fanatics? You ignore all evidence of
reality to fit the figments of your imagination.
Really? So where are all the missing links? Where are all the evolutionist's
evidence of mutation in progress? Why are the sandstone layers outside my
window (Moab, UT, btw) without signs of erosion to the various layers? Why
have all mutations yet discovered been NEGATIVE mutations?

And, above all, where is all the empirical scientific testing to support the
evolution theories????

Until Darwin, all scientists believed in God and always had empirical
scientific evidence for their findings. Now, they expect everyone to swallow
their spiels witout question.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
The "man walking with dinosaurs" was dreamed up in the late 1980's, and
at the time, even the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) didn't want
to endorse it.
Whether any group suports or denies "walking with dinosaurs", the evidence
is still there, in the rocks, written in stomne, asit were. Have you seen
such stones? I have, in high school (mid 60's), south of Las Animas,
Colorado along the Purgatorie River.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Retracking Those Incredible Man Tracks
http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/retrack.htm
The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy
http://tinyurl.com/4mc7t
To refute the entire Creationism Crock
About.com Against Creationism
http://geology.about.com/od/creationism_not/
I read either them or similar sites and they offer NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE FOR
EVOLUTION.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Let's not hear about how you are persecuted for your faith. Anybody who
believes in the Bible LITERALLY WORD FOR WORD ignores the fact that the
teachers of the Old Testament and Jesus himself always used allegory
and parables. Your brand of fanaticism is about as Christian as the
Taliban or Wadi are true followers of Islam. Like Marxist-Lennonists,
you don't mind lying to and misinforming us non-believers, because the
end justifies the means, and we are just dupes as far as you are concerned.
What put the burr under your saddle unless your intention was to attack my
faith, which you did? I was asking questions I wanted answers to. If the
answers were available, that is.

Believe what you wish about me or other Christians. Someday we'll all know
the truth, one way or another.
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Mack®
2004-11-02 08:10:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:51:44 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Until Darwin, all scientists believed in God and always had empirical
scientific evidence for their findings. Now, they expect everyone to swallow
their spiels witout question.
so wrong on so many levels.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Budd Cochran
2004-11-02 13:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Got proof?
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:51:44 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Until Darwin, all scientists believed in God and always had empirical
scientific evidence for their findings. Now, they expect everyone to swallow
their spiels witout question.
so wrong on so many levels.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt
Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?
NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Mack®
2004-11-02 14:31:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:37:14 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Got proof?
--
Budd
If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:51:44 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Until Darwin, all scientists believed in God and always had empirical
scientific evidence for their findings. Now, they expect everyone to
swallow
Post by Mack®
Post by Budd Cochran
their spiels witout question.
so wrong on so many levels.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
yep, your own documented christian history that shows those
individuals, including scientists were often persecuted,
excommunicated and even tortured to death for saying anything that
contradicted christian dogma.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Budd Cochran
2004-11-02 19:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin. Nowadays, any fool can write
a theory on anything and as long as it attempts to disprove Creation, and
it's acceptable.

Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:37:14 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Got proof?
--
Budd
If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:51:44 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Until Darwin, all scientists believed in God and always had empirical
scientific evidence for their findings. Now, they expect everyone to
swallow
Post by Mack®
Post by Budd Cochran
their spiels witout question.
so wrong on so many levels.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
yep, your own documented christian history that shows those
individuals, including scientists were often persecuted,
excommunicated and even tortured to death for saying anything that
contradicted christian dogma.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt
Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?
NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Chris Malcolm
2004-11-03 02:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin.
No explanation is possible, since the controlled experiment was not
invented until well after Darwin.
Post by Budd Cochran
Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
You certainly have. I don't think you even know what a controlled
experiment is. I think you know even less about science than you do
about the Bible, which it's quite obvious you've never read.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Budd Cochran
2004-11-03 02:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin.
No explanation is possible, since the controlled experiment was not
invented until well after Darwin.
Wrong. Roger Bacon used empirical experimentationlong before Darwin.
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
You certainly have. I don't think you even know what a controlled
experiment is. I think you know even less about science than you do
about the Bible, which it's quite obvious you've never read.
Whatever.
Post by Chris Malcolm
--
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Chris Malcolm
2004-11-03 10:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic
experiments
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin.
No explanation is possible, since the controlled experiment was not
invented until well after Darwin.
Wrong. Roger Bacon used empirical experimentationlong before Darwin.
So did Galileo and lots of other folk. But they didn't use controlled
experiments. Difficult to imagine how they could have done, even if
they'd been familiar with the idea, since the concept wasn't
applicable to what they were doing.

As I thought, you haven't a clue what an experimental control is.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Budd Cochran
2004-11-03 12:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic
experiments
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Budd Cochran
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin.
No explanation is possible, since the controlled experiment was not
invented until well after Darwin.
Wrong. Roger Bacon used empirical experimentationlong before Darwin.
So did Galileo and lots of other folk. But they didn't use controlled
experiments. Difficult to imagine how they could have done, even if
they'd been familiar with the idea, since the concept wasn't
applicable to what they were doing.
As I thought, you haven't a clue what an experimental control is.
Then you don't have a clue about controlled experiments either. Just look
closely at Gallileo's cannonball experiment, for example. He set it up for
close observation to determine the FACTS generated by the test, not just
spouting some unsupportable theory.

My whole point has been one thing . . .enough with the theories, give us
proven facts. What's wrong with questioning unproven theory?
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Mack®
2004-11-03 14:34:10 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:51:40 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
My whole point has been one thing . . .enough with the theories, give us
proven facts. What's wrong with questioning unproven theory?
so long as the theory is not unproven religious dogma right?

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
BJ in Texas
2004-11-03 18:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Budd Cochran wrote:
||
|| My whole point has been one thing . . .enough with the
|| theories, give us proven facts. What's wrong with questioning
|| unproven theory?
||

Or unproven religious literature.....
Boelkowj
2004-11-03 03:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Poorly written statement which I can't understand. Did you ever go to college?

Larry
Mack®
2004-11-03 13:23:30 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:36:31 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin. Nowadays, any fool can write
a theory on anything and as long as it attempts to disprove Creation, and
it's acceptable.
Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
sure, yea, that's why people were never excommunicated or tortured to
death because they questioned the shape of the planet, the cause of
disease by demonic posession or the existence of werewolves. The
christian church has documented, according to the history channel and
even the special on the animal planet that over 33 thousand people
were imprisoned and or tortured into confessing and put to death for
being, werewolves. How many suffered that were not documented?

And let's not forget The Rev Jesse Jackson who led a congregation to
vandalize a cemetery because it was in their words, filled with
demonic and occult symbols. Even though it was a christian cemetery.

And then there are the religious teachings that birth control harms
women, spreads disease faster or simply provides no protection what so
ever against disease because they are designed not to stop the spread
of aids, at least in countries like africa, per the words of modern
christian clergy members.

Are the christians the only ones guilty of these crimes? nope. Many
religious people are guilty of such crimes even when not christian.

Religion has historically fought scientific advancement even in areas
that have nothing to do with the creation myths.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Chris Malcolm
2004-11-03 18:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:36:31 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin. Nowadays, any fool can write
a theory on anything and as long as it attempts to disprove Creation, and
it's acceptable.
Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
sure, yea, that's why people were never excommunicated or tortured to
death because they questioned the shape of the planet, the cause of
disease by demonic posession or the existence of werewolves.
Religion has historically fought scientific advancement even in areas
that have nothing to do with the creation myths.
Be fair Mack. The Pope pardoned Galileo in 1992, and allowed Catholics
to read his previously heretical writings without endangering their
souls. In 1996 the Pope conceded that Darwinian evolution had formed
the human bodily form over millions of years. He's only a few hundred
years out of date, and catching up. Mind you, even that rate of
progress might be a little too fast for Budd.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Mack®
2004-11-03 18:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:36:31 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin. Nowadays, any fool can write
a theory on anything and as long as it attempts to disprove Creation, and
it's acceptable.
Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
sure, yea, that's why people were never excommunicated or tortured to
death because they questioned the shape of the planet, the cause of
disease by demonic posession or the existence of werewolves.
Religion has historically fought scientific advancement even in areas
that have nothing to do with the creation myths.
Be fair Mack. The Pope pardoned Galileo in 1992, and allowed Catholics
to read his previously heretical writings without endangering their
souls. In 1996 the Pope conceded that Darwinian evolution had formed
the human bodily form over millions of years. He's only a few hundred
years out of date, and catching up. Mind you, even that rate of
progress might be a little too fast for Budd.
I don't blame it all on the catholic sect of the christian group. But
the other sects don't seem to be able to learn from each other's
documented mistakes. So they keep repeating them.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Sleepyman
2004-11-04 02:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack®
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by Mack®
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:36:31 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Then explain why empirical experimentation ( good old classic experiments
using a control) were not dropped until Darwin. Nowadays, any fool can write
a theory on anything and as long as it attempts to disprove Creation, and
it's acceptable.
Looks like we've gone 180 degrees from true science.
sure, yea, that's why people were never excommunicated or tortured to
death because they questioned the shape of the planet, the cause of
disease by demonic posession or the existence of werewolves.
Religion has historically fought scientific advancement even in areas
that have nothing to do with the creation myths.
Be fair Mack. The Pope pardoned Galileo in 1992, and allowed Catholics
to read his previously heretical writings without endangering their
souls. In 1996 the Pope conceded that Darwinian evolution had formed
the human bodily form over millions of years. He's only a few hundred
years out of date, and catching up. Mind you, even that rate of
progress might be a little too fast for Budd.
I don't blame it all on the catholic sect of the christian group. But
the other sects don't seem to be able to learn from each other's
documented mistakes. So they keep repeating them.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
For as long as I can remember the Roman Catholic Church has recognized
the theory of evolution, albeit in a different form than straight
Darwinism.

Sleepy

-------------------------------------
Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Karl Marx
-------------------------------------
Sleepyman
2004-11-04 02:19:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:51:44 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Post by Dennis Rekuta
<snip>
Post by Budd Cochran
The bones of dinosaurs have been found on the same levels as human
bones,
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Post by Budd Cochran
footprints in the mud on the same geological levels. Something doesn't jive
in these theories, folks.
Budd
In the Holy Bible it shows how man lived along with the Dinosaurs. There
are prints of these animals and men walking together in 'Texas.
As the Bible shows us we have only been on this earth for around 5000
years there is no doubt they coexisted.
The Center for Creation Research in San Diego has many books on the
subject available for a nominal fee.
When bald faced lies amount to all of the evidence that "Creationists"
can muster, do you wonder why the rest of the world thinks people like
you two are nothing but religious fanatics? You ignore all evidence of
reality to fit the figments of your imagination.
Really? So where are all the missing links? Where are all the evolutionist's
evidence of mutation in progress? Why are the sandstone layers outside my
window (Moab, UT, btw) without signs of erosion to the various layers? Why
have all mutations yet discovered been NEGATIVE mutations?
And, above all, where is all the empirical scientific testing to support the
evolution theories????
Until Darwin, all scientists believed in God and always had empirical
scientific evidence for their findings. Now, they expect everyone to swallow
their spiels witout question.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
The "man walking with dinosaurs" was dreamed up in the late 1980's, and
at the time, even the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) didn't want
to endorse it.
Whether any group suports or denies "walking with dinosaurs", the evidence
is still there, in the rocks, written in stomne, asit were. Have you seen
such stones? I have, in high school (mid 60's), south of Las Animas,
Colorado along the Purgatorie River.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Retracking Those Incredible Man Tracks
http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/retrack.htm
The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy
http://tinyurl.com/4mc7t
To refute the entire Creationism Crock
About.com Against Creationism
http://geology.about.com/od/creationism_not/
I read either them or similar sites and they offer NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE FOR
EVOLUTION.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Let's not hear about how you are persecuted for your faith. Anybody who
believes in the Bible LITERALLY WORD FOR WORD ignores the fact that the
teachers of the Old Testament and Jesus himself always used allegory
and parables. Your brand of fanaticism is about as Christian as the
Taliban or Wadi are true followers of Islam. Like Marxist-Lennonists,
you don't mind lying to and misinforming us non-believers, because the
end justifies the means, and we are just dupes as far as you are
concerned.
Believe what you wish about me or other Christians. Someday we'll all know
the truth, one way or another.
Yup we will. If I guess wrong, I have a one in 3 chances of regretting
it. I'll take those odds.

Sleepy

-------------------------------------
Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Karl Marx
-------------------------------------
k***@dslextreme.com
2004-11-02 18:42:45 UTC
Permalink
YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A RAGING HATER OF ALL CHRISTIANS. YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE
A PAGAN AND HAVEN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD.
BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE, AND THAT WILL BE VERY SOON, I HOPE YOU REMEDY
THAT SITUATION AND REPENT!
Nan Eklund
2004-11-02 20:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
HAVEN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD.
Some of us have, many times over many years, from many viewpoints - and ended
up deciding - for ourselves - that it was a nice book with some excellant
proverbs, some lovely poetry (Book of Job is beautiful) and some good ideas
about how to live together - which have also been preached by religions from
Zoroaster to Bahai. Also full of some of the worst bull ever written.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Dennis Rekuta
2004-11-03 04:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
HAVEN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD.
Some of us have, many times over many years, from many viewpoints - and ended
up deciding - for ourselves - that it was a nice book with some excellant
proverbs, some lovely poetry (Book of Job is beautiful) and some good ideas
about how to live together - which have also been preached by religions from
Zoroaster to Bahai. Also full of some of the worst bull ever written.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
After reading some of Kiltyone's other posts, I have to apologize
slightly to Budd. Budd is not as rabid as this lunatic, who sometimes
seems to be rational when he was offering to connect us with a source of
"safe" Ginkgo Biloba, and today seems like a political troll gone berserk.

Time to stop watching the election and get back to the bookkeeping.
Sigh. :-( December 31 is looming, and although our tax deadline in
Canada is April 30 instead of April 15, red tape is red tape in any
country. I am glad I don't do commuter U.S. returns anymore.

Dennis (Type 2)
--
-- "We can't help it. We're men" The Red Green Show.
Alan
2004-11-03 06:48:52 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:52:26 -0500, Dennis Rekuta
Post by Dennis Rekuta
After reading some of Kiltyone's other posts, I have to apologize
slightly to Budd. Budd is not as rabid as this lunatic, who sometimes
seems to be rational when he was offering to connect us with a source of
"safe" Ginkgo Biloba, and today seems like a political troll gone berserk.
Time to stop watching the election and get back to the bookkeeping.
Sigh. :-( December 31 is looming, and although our tax deadline in
Canada is April 30 instead of April 15, red tape is red tape in any
country. I am glad I don't do commuter U.S. returns anymore.
Dennis (Type 2)
Hi Dennis

I've suspected for quite a while that kilty aka crone is like bistoury
(if not actually bistoury); that is, several posters sharing a computer.
It is possible, although not probable, that the original and apparently
sane subscriber is unaware of the other users posting in their name.

I kill-filed it some time ago.


Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
Remove weight and carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Budd Cochran
2004-11-03 12:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, if someone named "Budd" was offering safe Ginko Bilboa, it wasn't me.

With my other health probs, I can't take it.
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
HAVEN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD.
Some of us have, many times over many years, from many viewpoints - and ended
up deciding - for ourselves - that it was a nice book with some excellant
proverbs, some lovely poetry (Book of Job is beautiful) and some good ideas
about how to live together - which have also been preached by religions from
Zoroaster to Bahai. Also full of some of the worst bull ever written.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
After reading some of Kiltyone's other posts, I have to apologize
slightly to Budd. Budd is not as rabid as this lunatic, who sometimes
seems to be rational when he was offering to connect us with a source of
"safe" Ginkgo Biloba, and today seems like a political troll gone berserk.
Time to stop watching the election and get back to the bookkeeping.
Sigh. :-( December 31 is looming, and although our tax deadline in
Canada is April 30 instead of April 15, red tape is red tape in any
country. I am glad I don't do commuter U.S. returns anymore.
Dennis (Type 2)
--
-- "We can't help it. We're men" The Red Green Show.
Mack®
2004-11-03 14:33:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:46:40 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Sorry, if someone named "Budd" was offering safe Ginko Bilboa, it wasn't me.
With my other health probs, I can't take it.
no the kilty troll was offering to sucker someone into buying it.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Mack®
2004-11-03 13:45:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:52:26 -0500, Dennis Rekuta
Post by Dennis Rekuta
After reading some of Kiltyone's other posts, I have to apologize
Dennis (Type 2)
Budd is known diabetic. Kilty is not only not a diabetic but is a
well known long established troll posting under several aliases.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Sleepyman
2004-11-04 03:02:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:52:26 -0500, Dennis Rekuta
Post by Dennis Rekuta
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
HAVEN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD.
Some of us have, many times over many years, from many viewpoints - and ended
up deciding - for ourselves - that it was a nice book with some excellant
proverbs, some lovely poetry (Book of Job is beautiful) and some good ideas
about how to live together - which have also been preached by religions from
Zoroaster to Bahai. Also full of some of the worst bull ever written.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
After reading some of Kiltyone's other posts, I have to apologize
slightly to Budd. Budd is not as rabid as this lunatic, who sometimes
seems to be rational when he was offering to connect us with a source of
"safe" Ginkgo Biloba, and today seems like a political troll gone berserk.
Time to stop watching the election and get back to the bookkeeping.
Sigh. :-( December 31 is looming, and although our tax deadline in
Canada is April 30 instead of April 15, red tape is red tape in any
country. I am glad I don't do commuter U.S. returns anymore.
Dennis (Type 2)
When he used to troll under the name Bistory, he claimed to believe in
the mystical LSD driven drivel by Dr Andrew Weil re: Natural and
Spiritual, and Heal Yourself bs, and how it kept his family alive and
well. Then he was a liberal democrat, and now this most recent
incantation, and a few others in here methinks

Sleepy

-------------------------------------
Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Karl Marx
-------------------------------------
Mack®
2004-11-03 13:32:00 UTC
Permalink
On 02 Nov 2004 20:45:51 GMT, ***@aol.com (Nan Eklund) Screamed
something into the void that sounded like:

(troll quote snipped)
Post by Nan Eklund
Some of us have, many times over many years, from many viewpoints - and ended
up deciding - for ourselves - that it was a nice book with some excellant
proverbs, some lovely poetry (Book of Job is beautiful) and some good ideas
really?
Post by Nan Eklund
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
could you quote something from Job that you consider to be lovely
poetry? Personally that story showed me so many faults in that belief
system it led me to reject it. The killing of Job's family members
because the devil made a wager with god was bad enough. But when he
was given replacements for them, not given the original family members
back unharmed, that was the clincher. It showed me that a wife was
not considered as anything more than expendable property and the
children were no better.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Dennis Rekuta
2004-11-03 05:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A RAGING HATER OF ALL CHRISTIANS. YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE
A PAGAN AND HAVEN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD.
BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE, AND THAT WILL BE VERY SOON, I HOPE YOU REMEDY
THAT SITUATION AND REPENT!
That can't be true, because anyone who believes in the Bible literally
word for word isn't even a Christian, but is instead a westernized Wadi
or Taliban - i.e. religious fanatic like PETA members, vegans, or the
sects who killed Jesus.

(Sorry for including nominally harmless vegans with the other mutts, but
as far as I can tell, their uncompromising resoluteness comes from a
philosophical viewpoint that is indistinguishable from certain odious
religious theology.)

Get thee behind me Kiltyone, you thrice dammed hell spawn of Satan. Give
me an honest spiritual Wiccan, Buddhist, Bahai or Jainist over a fraud
like you any day of the week. Try reading Tom Harpur's "The Pagan
Christ", or one of his articles:

http://www.tomharpur.com/articles/index.asp

and in particular his article on the historical evidence for Jesus:

http://www.tomharpur.com/articles/StarRecent2004/MAY1604.asp


Well, you won't read them, but someone more rational might. You have
proven tonight with your surreal and absurd political postings that you
are a complete lunatic, if you are not in fact a troll.

Finally, stop SHOUTING in your posts, you inconsiderate lout. You have
been on the internet long enough to know proper netiquette.

Dennis (Type 2)
--
-- "We can't help it. We're men" The Red Green Show.
Nan Eklund
2004-11-02 20:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@dslextreme.com
As the Bible shows us we have only been on this earth for around 5000
years there is no doubt they coexisted.
Flores man was over 13,000 years ago, as proved by the layer of ash from the
Krakatoa volcano.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Nan Eklund
2004-11-02 20:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Budd, if you want to get into theories (and I love to do that) then perhaps
various dinosaurs lasted into the time of homo sap hunters. (Sorry - I like
the term "homo sap" and don't mind being included in it.)
The Western writer, Louis L'Amour, who was a darn good researchers, believed
the Amerindians hunted mastodons.
Feathered dinosaurs have been found in
China. (They found a ready-to-hatch egg with a "chick" complete with
feathers.)
And if you believe in Loch Nessie, something has survived into now, just as the
"extinct"fish off South Africa (senior moment = can't remember how to spell
coelacanth) survived to now.
I do believe in the factual foundation of myths. After all, Leif Ericson DID
discover Newfoundland. And may not have been the first, either.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Budd Cochran
2004-11-03 00:36:55 UTC
Permalink
The problem is, Nan, there's too darn many theories with no empirical
scientific support. I want facts and tangible evidence, not somebody's wild
dream.

Example, Krakatoa erupted in the 1800's not 13,000 years ago. It's ash is no
older than that as it was made when superheated stone burned in the
atmosphere.

None of the various dating methods has any provable accuracy. Radiocarbon
dating once determined a brand new telephone to be several thousands of
years old.

Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?

I'm just asking the questions everyone _should_ be asking instead of
assuming these "experts" are always right.
--
Budd
Post by Nan Eklund
Budd, if you want to get into theories (and I love to do that) then perhaps
various dinosaurs lasted into the time of homo sap hunters. (Sorry - I like
the term "homo sap" and don't mind being included in it.)
The Western writer, Louis L'Amour, who was a darn good researchers, believed
the Amerindians hunted mastodons.
Feathered dinosaurs have been found in
China. (They found a ready-to-hatch egg with a "chick" complete with
feathers.)
And if you believe in Loch Nessie, something has survived into now, just as the
"extinct"fish off South Africa (senior moment = can't remember how to spell
coelacanth) survived to now.
I do believe in the factual foundation of myths. After all, Leif Ericson DID
discover Newfoundland. And may not have been the first, either.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Alan
2004-11-03 06:45:54 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:36:55 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
Budd, you're not seriously suggesting the Genesis theory of evolution?
Shades of "Inherit the Wind".

Evolution occurred over eons, not decades. Your dog sires a dog or bitch
similar to itself, modified by the bitch involved. But it doesn't sire a
clone. That pup bears only some resemblance to it's ancestor from a
hundred years ago, and very little resemblance to the wild dog in it's
ancestry ten thousand years ago.

Survival of the fittest works both ways. One reason cancer (and
diabetes) is rising in the statistics is that medical science has
extended lives that would have ended before the cancer or diabetes
appeared just a century ago.


Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
Remove weight and carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
URAQT2
2004-11-03 06:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:36:55 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
Budd, you're not seriously suggesting the Genesis theory of evolution?
You are right Alan; he isn't suggesting it.
He is stating it as an irrefutable fact!!!!
--
Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Constant kindness can accomplish much. As the sun makes ice melt,
kindness causes misunderstanding, mistrust and hostility to
evaporate."
- Albert Schweitzer
Budd Cochran
2004-11-03 13:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:36:55 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
Budd, you're not seriously suggesting the Genesis theory of evolution?
Shades of "Inherit the Wind".
I am suggesting that solid evidence be given and not theory. What's wrong
with questioning the lack of solid evidence, the lack of transitional
fossils, the fact Lucy's bones were gathered from several square miles of
area and therefore probably not belong to any one skeleton, the fact that
hoaxes have been purpetrated in the past
Post by Alan
Evolution occurred over eons, not decades. Your dog sires a dog or bitch
similar to itself, modified by the bitch involved. But it doesn't sire a
clone. That pup bears only some resemblance to it's ancestor from a
hundred years ago, and very little resemblance to the wild dog in it's
ancestry ten thousand years ago.
Dogs have been puprose bred, genetic manipulation, if you will. A poor
example imho. OTOH, look at wolves and coyotes in the wild and the species
still runs true _except_ where feral dogs had bred in to the gene pool.

Ya-da-ya-da-ya-da. Where's the proof? All mutations recorded in the last 100
years have been NEGATIVE mutations, not positive. None benifitted the
species. There have been no new species and, yes, there has been enough
elapsed time, according to the evolutionary timeline.
Post by Alan
Survival of the fittest works both ways. One reason cancer (and
diabetes) is rising in the statistics is that medical science has
extended lives that would have ended before the cancer or diabetes
appeared just a century ago.
Could it be that genetic linked diseases are on the rise because our genes
are mutating negatively??? Has anyone bothered to suggest the possibility?
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Mack®
2004-11-03 13:42:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:36:55 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
The problem is, Nan, there's too darn many theories with no empirical
scientific support. I want facts and tangible evidence, not somebody's wild
dream.
Example, Krakatoa erupted in the 1800's not 13,000 years ago. It's ash is no
older than that as it was made when superheated stone burned in the
atmosphere.
volcanoes erupt more than once, some have been erupting for hundreds
if not thousands of years continuously - Hawaii.
Post by Budd Cochran
None of the various dating methods has any provable accuracy. Radiocarbon
dating once determined a brand new telephone to be several thousands of
years old.
I'd still like to see a provable reference to that. and not one from
a religious or known kook site.
Post by Budd Cochran
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
so you are saying that your domestic dog is not a mutation?
Post by Budd Cochran
I'm just asking the questions everyone _should_ be asking instead of
assuming these "experts" are always right.
no one is assuming they are always right. Even the expects refine
their and change their positions when they learn knew things. That's
why we no longer believe that ghosts and goblins and fairies and evil
spirits cause the common cold or that sneezing causes or allows a
demon to pass from one person to another. well most people don't
believe those things, but there are some religious/superstitious
people who still do. Southern Baptist TV evangelists still preach
that demons cause everything from deafness to diabetes to warts and
alcoholism.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Chris Malcolm
2004-11-03 18:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:36:55 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
None of the various dating methods has any provable accuracy. Radiocarbon
dating once determined a brand new telephone to be several thousands of
years old.
I'd still like to see a provable reference to that. and not one from
a religious or known kook site.
Of course it did -- when nuclear bomb testing started it completely
destroyed the basis of radiocarbon dating for anything made after
nuclear testing started. The dating of anything made after the first
bombs exploded is rubbish. Radiocarbon dating only works for old
pre-nuclear things. But you couldn't expect Budd to know that.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Wes Groleau
2004-11-04 01:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
Of course it did -- when nuclear bomb testing started it completely
destroyed the basis of radiocarbon dating for anything made after
nuclear testing started. The dating of anything made after the first
bombs exploded is rubbish. Radiocarbon dating only works for old
radiocarbon dating depends on assumptions that
cannot be proven. The most obvious of these
is the assumption that the amount of carbon 14
in the atmosphere, determined by radiation from
space, is constant because the radiation is constant.

Even though there's evidence that the earth's magnetic
field, which affects the amount of radiation getting in,
has changed in the past.
--
Wes Groleau

Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest thou also be like unto him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise according to his own conceit.
-- Solomon

Are you saying there's no good way to answer a fool?
-- Groleau
Nan Eklund
2004-11-03 19:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of dogs - just watch one of the major dog shows. Everything from
miniature poodles to Norwegian Elkhounds. Some breeds go back to Egypt; some
have been in China since records existed. Some have been deliberately bred to
herd, chase, run, fight.

And as to theories, that's just a name for an idea that fits the facts we know
at the time. No one seriously doubts that gravity exists, yet it's still
"Newton's Theory of Gravity". What empirical and scientific facts we have
support, in general, Darwin and not Moses. So it seems sensible to go with it.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Wes Groleau
2004-11-04 01:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack®
I'd still like to see a provable reference to that. and not one from
a religious or known kook site.
Well, you see, there's a problem. Neither side
dares to acknowledge anything that casts doubt on
their hypothesis.

And when either side posts such against the other side,
the other side conveniently says, "Prove it with a cite
to a site I can trust" where "site I can trust" means
"site that is on my side."

(And, yes, this tendency also functions in psychology, politics,
economics, sociology, and to a limited extent, medicine.)
--
Wes Groleau

Truth often suffers more from the heat of its defenders
than from the arguments of its opposers.
-- William Penn
Mack®
2004-11-04 03:39:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:25:22 -0500, Wes Groleau
Post by Wes Groleau
Post by Mack®
I'd still like to see a provable reference to that. and not one from
a religious or known kook site.
Well, you see, there's a problem. Neither side
dares to acknowledge anything that casts doubt on
their hypothesis.
And when either side posts such against the other side,
the other side conveniently says, "Prove it with a cite
to a site I can trust" where "site I can trust" means
"site that is on my side."
(And, yes, this tendency also functions in psychology, politics,
economics, sociology, and to a limited extent, medicine.)
I.m not looking for a site that is on my side. just one that doesn't
post blatant obvious lies to support it's own dogma while calling
everyone who disagrees with it's dogma a liar or sinner, even when
those who disagree are of the same religion just another sect.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2008?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Ted Rosenberg
2004-11-03 18:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Sheesh
Budd, you gotta stay away from Fundie falsehoods

The one fact you have is the eruption

Everything else s total crap.

Carbon 14 dating is quite accurate, and we get mutations ALL the time.
You obviously don't know what a mutation is. A mutation in a dog is NOT
going to be it turning into a Bug Eyed Monster, it is going to be
something like a change in how it matabolozes osome food, or a slight
thickining og fur.
Post by Budd Cochran
The problem is, Nan, there's too darn many theories with no empirical
scientific support. I want facts and tangible evidence, not somebody's wild
dream.
Example, Krakatoa erupted in the 1800's not 13,000 years ago. It's ash is no
older than that as it was made when superheated stone burned in the
atmosphere.
None of the various dating methods has any provable accuracy. Radiocarbon
dating once determined a brand new telephone to be several thousands of
years old.
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
I'm just asking the questions everyone _should_ be asking instead of
assuming these "experts" are always right.
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
Budd Cochran
2004-11-03 19:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ted,

The fact is, no matter where I've looked, including secular information
sites and literature, my questions are unanswered and have been since I
first heard of evolution in high school. I have found tons of theories, but
no facts to support evolution, no skeletal fossils of transitionals, no
evidence of positive mutation, nothing. Where is the evidence??? I have seen
the footprints of Dinos and humans together for myself and the Biology
teacher couldn't explain it.

That was 15 years before I became a Christian.

Heck, there have been some recent discoveries that show the so-called
Neanderthal man had a hyoid bone . . .necessary for being capable of speech,
full speech. Well, that blows the theory they could only grunt, doesn't it?
Other evidence points to intermarriage between the Neanderthals and
Cro-Magnon man . . .Please welcome the modern European, a breed by
selection, not mutation

Which is more logical, strict, basic logic only:

The random chance that everything happened at just the right time for life
to not perish completely before it could mutate to survive the changes (with
odds of trillions to one AGAINST it)

Or

The Book of Genesis.

Chuck repeatedly told me how he always rebelled against authority . . . and
all I'm doing is rebelling against those "authorities" that stuff our minds
full of evolutionary cotton candy . . It sounds sweet, but there's no
substance to it.

Btw, the dogs we have today are not mutations but the result of selective
breeding . . .iow, human interference. All the selectively breed animals in
the world are not examples of evolution because they were designed by man.
For that reason, the example fails miserably and completely in supporting
evolution.

Before one accuses someone of falling for "fundie" error, be sure one hasn't
fallen for secular errors.

Cya.
--
Budd
Post by Ted Rosenberg
Sheesh
Budd, you gotta stay away from Fundie falsehoods
The one fact you have is the eruption
Everything else s total crap.
Carbon 14 dating is quite accurate, and we get mutations ALL the time.
You obviously don't know what a mutation is. A mutation in a dog is NOT
going to be it turning into a Bug Eyed Monster, it is going to be
something like a change in how it matabolozes osome food, or a slight
thickining og fur.
Post by Budd Cochran
The problem is, Nan, there's too darn many theories with no empirical
scientific support. I want facts and tangible evidence, not somebody's wild
dream.
Example, Krakatoa erupted in the 1800's not 13,000 years ago. It's ash is no
older than that as it was made when superheated stone burned in the
atmosphere.
None of the various dating methods has any provable accuracy. Radiocarbon
dating once determined a brand new telephone to be several thousands of
years old.
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
I'm just asking the questions everyone _should_ be asking instead of
assuming these "experts" are always right.
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
Mack®
2004-11-03 20:50:05 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:38:41 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Hi Ted,
The fact is, no matter where I've looked, including secular information
sites and literature, my questions are unanswered and have been since I
first heard of evolution in high school. I have found tons of theories, but
no facts to support evolution, no skeletal fossils of transitionals, no
evidence of positive mutation, nothing. Where is the evidence??? I have seen
the footprints of Dinos and humans together for myself and the Biology
teacher couldn't explain it.
That was 15 years before I became a Christian.
Heck, there have been some recent discoveries that show the so-called
Neanderthal man had a hyoid bone . . .necessary for being capable of speech,
full speech. Well, that blows the theory they could only grunt, doesn't it?
Other evidence points to intermarriage between the Neanderthals and
Cro-Magnon man . . .Please welcome the modern European, a breed by
selection, not mutation
The random chance that everything happened at just the right time for life
to not perish completely before it could mutate to survive the changes (with
odds of trillions to one AGAINST it)
Or
The Book of Genesis.
Chuck repeatedly told me how he always rebelled against authority . . . and
all I'm doing is rebelling against those "authorities" that stuff our minds
full of evolutionary cotton candy . . It sounds sweet, but there's no
substance to it.
Btw, the dogs we have today are not mutations but the result of selective
breeding . . .iow, human interference. All the selectively breed animals in
the world are not examples of evolution because they were designed by man.
For that reason, the example fails miserably and completely in supporting
evolution.
Before one accuses someone of falling for "fundie" error, be sure one hasn't
fallen for secular errors.
Cya.
Budd the example you give above about dogs disproves your claims about
mutation and evolution. the fact you do not understand what you are
talking about is not our fault. denying reality when it stares you in
the face and calling it logic is only insanity.

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."

...Theodore Roosevelt

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2008?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!
Dennis Rekuta
2004-11-04 03:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
Hi Ted,
The fact is, no matter where I've looked, including secular information
sites and literature, my questions are unanswered and have been since I
first heard of evolution in high school. I have found tons of theories, but
no facts to support evolution, no skeletal fossils of transitionals, no
evidence of positive mutation, nothing. Where is the evidence??? I have seen
the footprints of Dinos and humans together for myself and the Biology
teacher couldn't explain it.
Then as a professional he was a gullible, uninformed twit. You could be
excused as a layman. The dinosaur and human footprint side be side hoax
has been refuted for over 25 years. Yet "Creationists" keep repeating it
and repeating it. Therefore, I will repeat the sites that refute it:

Retracking Those Incredible Man Tracks
http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/retrack.htm

The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy
http://tinyurl.com/4mc7t

To refute the entire Creationism Crock
About.com Against Creationism
http://geology.about.com/od/creationism_not/

You say they are worthless. Nan has it right.
"Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts....."

Dennis (type 2)
Nan Eklund
2004-11-03 19:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
Example, Krakatoa erupted in the 1800's not 13,000 years ago. I
I knew I should have looked up which one erupted 13,000 years ago. The Nat
Geog article just said "a volcano" and the only one that blanketed so much
territory I could think of was Krakatoa......ooops.

The rest of your comments are excellant. But speculations are such fun, and we
have so few solid facts.

Nan, Type 2

Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Sleepyman
2004-11-04 04:30:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:36:55 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
The problem is, Nan, there's too darn many theories with no empirical
scientific support. I want facts and tangible evidence, not somebody's wild
dream.
Example, Krakatoa erupted in the 1800's not 13,000 years ago. It's ash is no
older than that as it was made when superheated stone burned in the
atmosphere.
None of the various dating methods has any provable accuracy. Radiocarbon
dating once determined a brand new telephone to be several thousands of
years old.
Where are the transitional mutations? Why is there no positive mutations
today? Why does my dog always sire more dogs?
I'm just asking the questions everyone _should_ be asking instead of
assuming these "experts" are always right.
I don't know the answers to everything, but believing that OT and NT
are literal words of God is incredible. Most Christians except certain
sects don't believe it either, so my atheism cannot be put to blame
for that.

A wonderful example of evolution, not "mutation" is the fairly recent
evolution of mankind, just in size. Have you ever seen a set of armor
from about 1000 years ago? They are "relatively"(chuckle) tiny. The
men who wore it averaged about 5' 5" During the US Civil War,
meticulous records of each soldier in the Union Army were kept.. The
average soldier was approx 5'8". Now the average American man is about
5' 91/2". Evolution? But there are times a few hundred years ago in
America when things were different. In the American Revolution the
average Colonial was the height we are today. At the signing of the Ft
Laramie treaty in 1851, the tallest people on the earth according to
the best info available, were the Northern Cheyenne. During WWI the
avg American was 2" taller than the German. Flip Flop in WWII. we
shrunk, and German grew and ended up 2" taller. Americans are now
amongst the shortest humans now. The average Asian is now as tall as
Americans. Go to the Netherlands, the average Man is 6'2". The average
woman 5'8".
Its all tied into diet, disease, pollution, nutrition and many other
things. Odd how we adapt to changing conditions. If we were all
created in God's image, God must be getting taller in some places, and
shorter in others.

Sleepy

-------------------------------------
Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Karl Marx
-------------------------------------

Anthony Marsh
2004-11-01 16:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Nan Eklund
Old wives tale? Men who retire and have no new interest tend to die fast.
Rumor at my college was that if a retiree lived a year he was going to be
o.k.
Post by Nan Eklund
Meant he had found something else to do, i.,e. found an interest in life.
Didn't you enjoy the "hobbit" nickname for Flores Man? Since they lived
at the
Post by Nan Eklund
same time as homo sap, maybe they were the source of elves and the like.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Back when I was young, healthy and handsome (sorta), I took a job with a
muffler factory and within a year had been accepted into the factory's
maintenance (millwright) apprenticeship program. About that time, two
gentlemen retired from that department. One said" I've done enough", and sat
on his porch and watched the world go by. The other opened a small engine
repair shop with a unique sign on the door. One side said, "OPEN", the other
said "Gone Fishing".
The first gentleman died of a heart attack after six months, the other was
still going strong into his 80's.
If Flores Man lived at the time of Homo Sap and could have been the "elves",
. . . then what were the dragons recorded in the same period of our
history?
Budd
The Komodo dragons.
Budd Cochran
2004-11-01 16:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Prove it.

Were you there? Look at the description of the great land beast in the Book
of Job. That is no Komodo and also is in the wrong part of the planet.
--
Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Anthony Marsh
The Komodo dragons.
Chris Malcolm
2004-11-02 10:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by None Given
Post by Chris Malcolm
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
I doubt it's the trying to be normal that is bad for you, it's the worry
that people will find out you're not normal that has health consequences.
If you're not normal, and trying to behave as passably normal, this
can take a great deal of time and effort trying to emulate what comes
naturally and without thought to normal folk, and to conceal or excuse
one's deficits. Such trying can't be done without worrying. Think of
being homosexual in a society where it illegal and evil. Think of
concealing that you can't read. Think of struggling with a disorder
that hasn't been diagnosed and you don't understand, such as dyslexia.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
None Given
2004-11-03 19:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
Post by None Given
Post by None Given
I doubt it's the trying to be normal that is bad for you, it's the worry
that people will find out you're not normal that has health
consequences.
Post by Chris Malcolm
If you're not normal, and trying to behave as passably normal, this
can take a great deal of time and effort trying to emulate what comes
naturally and without thought to normal folk, and to conceal or excuse
one's deficits. Such trying can't be done without worrying. Think of
being homosexual in a society where it illegal and evil. Think of
concealing that you can't read. Think of struggling with a disorder
that hasn't been diagnosed and you don't understand, such as dyslexia.
That isn't really trying to be normal, it's trying to _appear_ normal, so
people won't find out you're not [their version of normal, anyway.] Not
being yourself most of the time is very stressful. I'm finding that trying
to have a normal BG is nowhere near as stressful as trying to pretend I
wasn't nerdy and neurotic in high school.
Hiding the fact you can't read may look easier to do from the outside but
would be way more stressful than trying to find out why you can't read so
you can find a way to overcome it.
Skinny
2004-10-30 20:09:34 UTC
Permalink
On 30 Oct 2004 07:25:15 GMT, Chris Malcolm wrote:

/snip/
Post by Chris Malcolm
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
I remember a study saying eccentrics also tended to have more money. I
wondered if were the other way around, that people with more money (and
perhaps people with better health) could afford to be eccentric, or at least
to be blatant enough to be found for a study. :)

Also, the older people get, the more they may be able to indulge
eccentricity.



Skinny
Budd Cochran
2004-10-30 20:46:04 UTC
Permalink
If eccentricity were all that was required for health and long life, then I
should not have Type 2, arthritis, or heart problems and should live to be
around 1005.

After all, my mom always said that as a baby I was so far off center that I
wobbled even when sitting.

<BG>
--
Budd
Post by Skinny
/snip/
Post by Chris Malcolm
More generally, research has shown that eccentrics tend to live longer
and have happier healthier lives. Which confirms a suspicion I've long
had: that trying to be normal is bad for you :-)
I remember a study saying eccentrics also tended to have more money. I
wondered if were the other way around, that people with more money (and
perhaps people with better health) could afford to be eccentric, or at least
to be blatant enough to be found for a study. :)
Also, the older people get, the more they may be able to indulge
eccentricity.
Skinny
Quentin Grady
2004-10-30 22:54:33 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:46:04 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
After all, my mom always said that as a baby I was so far off center that I
wobbled even when sitting.
<BG>
<LOL>

G'day G'day Budd,

On reflection I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Obviously your
mother loved you. The image portrayed is one of acceptance of
whatever eccentricity you displayed. In the next generation though
perhaps the word picture could create an image less sedentary.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Budd Cochran
2004-10-31 15:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
This post not CC'd by email
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:46:04 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
After all, my mom always said that as a baby I was so far off center that I
wobbled even when sitting.
<BG>
<LOL>
G'day G'day Budd,
On reflection I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Obviously your
mother loved you. The image portrayed is one of acceptance of
whatever eccentricity you displayed. In the next generation though
perhaps the word picture could create an image less sedentary.
Yes, Quentin, she did love me and she instilled me with the majority of my
sense of humor. However, I did wobble as a toddler for, you see, I HAD
POLIO, and I couldn't sit up without pillows around me.

And since I'm a citizen of the U.S. I have freedom of expression as well. If
you don't like what I write then just killfile me. I don't give a darn about
what you think I should write.

and a good day to you.

Budd
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 02:09:28 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:10:06 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Yes, Quentin, she did love me and she instilled me with the majority of my
sense of humor. However, I did wobble as a toddler for, you see, I HAD
POLIO, and I couldn't sit up without pillows around me.
G'day G'day Budd,

An inspiring message.
A testament to the survival of the human spirit.

It reminds me of a hockey team I once coached. The fastest wing I ever
had, had been afflicted with polio as a child and spent primary school
in caliper braces.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Budd Cochran
2004-11-01 13:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:10:06 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
Yes, Quentin, she did love me and she instilled me with the majority of my
sense of humor. However, I did wobble as a toddler for, you see, I HAD
POLIO, and I couldn't sit up without pillows around me.
G'day G'day Budd,
An inspiring message.
A testament to the survival of the human spirit.
It reminds me of a hockey team I once coached. The fastest wing I ever
had, had been afflicted with polio as a child and spent primary school
in caliper braces.
While researching Post-Polio Syndrome (another bone of health troubles for
me to gnaw on) I discovered that Polio survivors tend to have the highest
percentage of Type A personalities . . . start telling us something can't be
done and we'll interrupt you with the completion of the task. <VBG>

One of my personal heroes while growing up was Roger Cunningham, the guy
that lost about half the muscle off his legs to a fire and later ran a four
minute mile.

Budd
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 17:00:00 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:48:13 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
While researching Post-Polio Syndrome (another bone of health troubles for
me to gnaw on) I discovered that Polio survivors tend to have the highest
percentage of Type A personalities . . . start telling us something can't be
done and we'll interrupt you with the completion of the task. <VBG>
G'day G'day Budd,

I gather Post-Polio Syndrome is where the person appears to have an
second attack of polio much later in life when in fact it sort of a
muscle tissue fatigue
Post by Budd Cochran
One of my personal heroes while growing up was Roger Cunningham, the guy
that lost about half the muscle off his legs to a fire and later ran a four
minute mile.
That is staggering. I was much inspired by the doctors reports on
Medscape of the T1 diabetic who made it into the US Olympic swim team.
IMHO the athletes who manage these feats need an extra medal. Perhaps
they already do ... because they are the memorable ones.
Post by Budd Cochran
Budd
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Budd Cochran
2004-11-01 19:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
This post not CC'd by email
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:48:13 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
Post by Budd Cochran
While researching Post-Polio Syndrome (another bone of health troubles for
me to gnaw on) I discovered that Polio survivors tend to have the highest
percentage of Type A personalities . . . start telling us something can't be
done and we'll interrupt you with the completion of the task. <VBG>
G'day G'day Budd,
I gather Post-Polio Syndrome is where the person appears to have an
second attack of polio much later in life when in fact it sort of a
muscle tissue fatigue
Close, but no cigar, friend. <BG> To recover, when possible, from Polio, the
survivor has to force his body to generate new nerve endings from nerves
still funtioning, sort of like spreading the fingers of your hand across a
thigh. These endings last for an average of 40 or so years then begin to
fail (draw in fingers in alternation from one side to the other till just a
flat hand remains) and then you're back to only about 5-20% of your muscles
still functioning.

I built up most of my leg nerves and strength as a teen (at my peak I could
do 200 deep knee bends without strain, but then I was a mild Polio case)
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Budd Cochran
One of my personal heroes while growing up was Roger Cunningham, the guy
that lost about half the muscle off his legs to a fire and later ran a four
minute mile.
That is staggering. I was much inspired by the doctors reports on
Medscape of the T1 diabetic who made it into the US Olympic swim team.
IMHO the athletes who manage these feats need an extra medal. Perhaps
they already do ... because they are the memorable ones.
I goofed! I had been reading about Briggs Cunnigham just before I posted
here, so I wrote his last name, though I thought I meant Roger Bannister,
but now I'm not so sure. I'm afraid I've forgotten! He was an Australian
back in the late 40's that was caught in a fire as a kid and later became a
runner . . .gawd it's heck getting old.

Anyway, he was my inspiration to overcome my own Polio. One success led to
another and ended up being the strongest, physically, in my family thoufgh I
was still the runt of the litter.
--
Budd
Annette
2004-11-02 12:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budd Cochran
I goofed! I had been reading about Briggs Cunnigham just before I posted
here, so I wrote his last name, though I thought I meant Roger Bannister,
but now I'm not so sure. I'm afraid I've forgotten! He was an Australian
back in the late 40's that was caught in a fire as a kid and later became a
runner . . .gawd it's heck getting old.
Hi there Budd,

Perhaps you have caught the Senile Virus? It is going around lately. ;-)

Sir Roger Bannister is an Englishman, and a doctor, who "broke" the 4 minute
mile a little over 50 yrs ago. His greatest rival was Australia's John
Landy, who is now the Governor of Victoria.

His biography has been released for sale, if you want to track it down.

A famous Australian person to whom you may also relate was Annette
Kellerman. She suffered polio as a child, and her father encouraged her to
swim, in order to exercise the damaged muscles. She gained fame in the
movies, making many a film involving both water aerobics and underwater
ballet. A movie of her life was made, with Annette being portrayed by Esther
Williams.

My interest in this amazing woman was generated both by her being an
Australian, and also my namesake. She did more than just swim exceedingly
well, but challenged the mores of her times with her "daring" swimming
attire, outspoken manner and general advocacy of women's rights. These
attitudes brought her much unwanted attention.

Definitely an "eccentric" of her times!

Annette
Budd Cochran
2004-11-02 13:49:04 UTC
Permalink
--

Budd

If it wasn't important enough for you to take time to vote,
then it's not important to me to listen to you whine about who won or lost.
Post by Annette
Post by Budd Cochran
I goofed! I had been reading about Briggs Cunnigham just before I posted
here, so I wrote his last name, though I thought I meant Roger Bannister,
but now I'm not so sure. I'm afraid I've forgotten! He was an Australian
back in the late 40's that was caught in a fire as a kid and later
became
Post by Annette
a
Post by Budd Cochran
runner . . .gawd it's heck getting old.
Hi there Budd,
Perhaps you have caught the Senile Virus? It is going around lately. ;-)
Hmm, better check with my doctor today about a vaccine for it.
Post by Annette
Sir Roger Bannister is an Englishman, and a doctor, who "broke" the 4 minute
mile a little over 50 yrs ago. His greatest rival was Australia's John
Landy, who is now the Governor of Victoria.
His biography has been released for sale, if you want to track it down.
I read the gist of it online and that's why I think I was mistaken about who
I was referring to.
Post by Annette
A famous Australian person to whom you may also relate was Annette
Kellerman. She suffered polio as a child, and her father encouraged her to
swim, in order to exercise the damaged muscles. She gained fame in the
movies, making many a film involving both water aerobics and underwater
ballet. A movie of her life was made, with Annette being portrayed by Esther
Williams.
My interest in this amazing woman was generated both by her being an
Australian, and also my namesake. She did more than just swim exceedingly
well, but challenged the mores of her times with her "daring" swimming
attire, outspoken manner and general advocacy of women's rights. These
attitudes brought her much unwanted attention.
Definitely an "eccentric" of her times!
Annette
I never swam well, according to one doctor, my legs were too strong for the
size of my feet. However, with a set of fins I was a human torpedo.

I'll have to look her up as I gain support for my day to day from those who
have overcome adversity in their own lives.

The advantage of being eccentric is your never stuck in the middle. <BG>

Budd
Annette
2004-10-31 16:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
G'day G'day Folks,
Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative of humans
was discovered in the Indonesian Island of Flores in 2003. The
suggestion is these hobbit like creatures had the use of tools and
fire and that a volcano some 12 thousand years ago wiped them out.
What I found curious was that in all the reports I saw, no mention was made
to a much genetically closer, small sized member of homo sapiens, ie the
forest pigmies of Africa. The Kalahari "bushmen" aren't all that tall
either. Yet not one report mentioned them, let alone made any comparisons.

Most of the true scientific excitement is really about finding a previously
unknown "homo", and calling them "Hobbits" is a bit of a side-track, IMHO.
I suppose they had to call them something, but their size is of less
interest to anthropologists than their unknown and historical co-existance
with homo sap. (gotta love that abreviation).

I am not all that surprised that they had tools etc, brain development is
not just about size. Having fire is interesting though, it shows it came
about very early indeed. From what I've been seeing lately in studies of
other animals, *their* ability to problem solve and use tools is still
markedly underestimated anyway. Seems we generally just don't really want to
know. It's hard to justify "using" a creature that is too much like
ourselves. Hence the tendency to "de-humanise" even those who are genuinely
human if one wishes to exploit them in any way.

Annette
Who talks to the animals.
Quentin Grady
2004-10-31 17:18:31 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Annette
Post by Quentin Grady
G'day G'day Folks,
Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative of humans
was discovered in the Indonesian Island of Flores in 2003. The
suggestion is these hobbit like creatures had the use of tools and
fire and that a volcano some 12 thousand years ago wiped them out.
What I found curious was that in all the reports I saw, no mention was made
to a much genetically closer, small sized member of homo sapiens, ie the
forest pigmies of Africa. The Kalahari "bushmen" aren't all that tall
either. Yet not one report mentioned them, let alone made any comparisons.
G'day G'day Annette,

The Kalahari "bushmen" were mention in one report I came across.
They illustrate an important point. Their brain size is about the
usual sized for homo sapiens. The Flores Man has a brain about one
third the size.
Post by Annette
Most of the true scientific excitement is really about finding a previously
unknown "homo", and calling them "Hobbits" is a bit of a side-track, IMHO.
I suppose they had to call them something, but their size is of less
interest to anthropologists than their unknown and historical co-existance
with homo sap. (gotta love that abreviation).
I am not all that surprised that they had tools etc, brain development is
not just about size. Having fire is interesting though, it shows it came
about very early indeed. From what I've been seeing lately in studies of
other animals, *their* ability to problem solve and use tools is still
markedly underestimated anyway. Seems we generally just don't really want to
know. It's hard to justify "using" a creature that is too much like
ourselves. Hence the tendency to "de-humanise" even those who are genuinely
human if one wishes to exploit them in any way.
Oh, how true. My guess is some humans got delude themselves as to
their uniqueness and separation from other animals because their great
great great ... grandparents eliminated the closer links.
Post by Annette
Annette
Who talks to the animals.
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Nan Eklund
2004-10-31 19:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Annette
no mention was made
Post by Annette
to a much genetically closer, small sized member of homo sapiens, ie the
forest pigmies of Africa. The
The report I read said the hobbits were about 3 feet tall while the pygmies are
about 4 feet tall.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Nicky
2004-10-31 21:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nan Eklund
Post by Annette
no mention was made
Post by Annette
to a much genetically closer, small sized member of homo sapiens, ie the
forest pigmies of Africa. The
The report I read said the hobbits were about 3 feet tall while the pygmies are
about 4 feet tall.
I once met a group of forest pygmies, when I was about 10. I dwarfed them!
I've also met several San (bushmen) at various times. Both groups are as
intelligent as I am; no question at all that we are the same species,
whatever the physical differences!

I once had a Guiness Book of Records where the woman who held the record for
the highest IQ also had it for the smallest brain pan. I'm very suspicious
of any attempt to categorise brain power by physical evidence.

Nicky.
--
HbA1c 10.5/6.4/<6 Weight 95/81/72
1g Metformin, 75ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004
Nan Eklund
2004-11-02 21:10:41 UTC
Permalink
What a fascinating thread this has been.
Thanks to Quentin, Frank, Annette and Chris who added to the general
information and speculation. We don't know a fraction, YET, of what we need to
know about genetics, diet, the human past......
but the whole discussion is OT only in that the connection to diabetes is still
in the "maybe but we don't know yet" category.
Nan, Type 2
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Wes Groleau
2004-11-01 03:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
They illustrate an important point. Their brain size is about the
usual sized for homo sapiens. The Flores Man has a brain about one
third the size.
I'm not sure what the significance of that is.
What is the size of an elephant's brain?
I know they never forget, but .....
--
Wes Groleau

He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
-- Samuel Butler, 1612-1680
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 05:06:55 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:55:05 -0500, Wes Groleau
Post by Wes Groleau
Post by Quentin Grady
They illustrate an important point. Their brain size is about the
usual sized for homo sapiens. The Flores Man has a brain about one
third the size.
I'm not sure what the significance of that is.
G'day G'day Wes,

You are in good company. The situation as currently presented leaves
many, many questions unanswered. FWIIW I am amazed at the lack of
hard data collected. OK, the skeletons have been dated and found to be
WIDELY separated in the times they lived ... thousands of years IIRC.

At the moment though so much is conjecture. There is much talk of
mysterious land bridges or gaining and losing seafaring ability.

Much can be learnt from remnants of DNA. The mostly likely DNA to
still be available might be in pollens. That would tell us something
of their diet.
Post by Wes Groleau
What is the size of an elephant's brain?
I know they never forget, but .....
What I find fascinating is how people react to something that upsets
their beliefs. A diagnosis of diabetes is often like that. People
believe something about diet and then one day those beliefs have
suddenly to be modified.

Some go through periods of denial and diversion.

Some throw out the baby in the hope of ridding themselves of the bath
water.

Best wishes.
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Budd Cochran
2004-11-01 13:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:55:05 -0500, Wes Groleau
Post by Wes Groleau
Post by Quentin Grady
They illustrate an important point. Their brain size is about the
usual sized for homo sapiens. The Flores Man has a brain about one
third the size.
I'm not sure what the significance of that is.
G'day G'day Wes,
You are in good company. The situation as currently presented leaves
many, many questions unanswered. FWIIW I am amazed at the lack of
hard data collected. OK, the skeletons have been dated and found to be
WIDELY separated in the times they lived ... thousands of years IIRC.
And the skeletal remains commonly called "lucy" were scattered over several
square miles . . .how do they know they all belonged to the same being?
Post by Quentin Grady
At the moment though so much is conjecture. There is much talk of
mysterious land bridges or gaining and losing seafaring ability.
Conjecture is never scientific fact, yet it is swallowed by even the
educated as such.
Post by Quentin Grady
Much can be learnt from remnants of DNA. The mostly likely DNA to
still be available might be in pollens. That would tell us something
of their diet.
If the remnants are human ( but remember the claims that certain primates
are very close to us genetically, which could confuse the issue) then I'd
like a test run to determine if the DNA is unchanged from them to us. Is it
better now or worse ( more chromosomal damage or less ) than ours?
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Wes Groleau
What is the size of an elephant's brain?
I know they never forget, but .....
What I find fascinating is how people react to something that upsets
their beliefs. A diagnosis of diabetes is often like that. People
believe something about diet and then one day those beliefs have
suddenly to be modified.
Then we must also remember there are birds, apes and rodents that use
"tools" of sorts . . . . .
Budd
Kromagnan
2004-11-01 00:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
G'day G'day Folks,
Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative
of humans

Did it have diatetes? In case you didn't know it, this is a
group about diabetes. OH, you did know it! You just see this
group as an open forum for people WITH diabetes so you posted
something; how cute.



K
URAQT2
2004-11-01 01:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Quentin Grady
G'day G'day Folks,
Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative
of humans
Did it have diatetes? In case you didn't know it, this is a
group about diabetes. OH, you did know it! You just see this
group as an open forum for people WITH diabetes so you posted
something; how cute.
K
Hey, asshole, do yourself and the rest of us a favor. Try contributing
something about diabetes and disregarding all threads that are marked OT.
--
Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?

NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush
And Absolutely NO Rice!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Constant kindness can accomplish much. As the sun makes ice melt,
kindness causes misunderstanding, mistrust and hostility to
evaporate."
- Albert Schweitzer
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 03:50:31 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Quentin Grady
G'day G'day Folks,
Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative
of humans
Did it have diatetes? In case you didn't know it, this is a
group about diabetes. OH, you did know it! You just see this
group as an open forum for people WITH diabetes so you posted
something; how cute.
K
G'day G'day Kromagnan,

Thank you for the endorsement.

FWIIW, this post was clearly labeled as an OT (Off Topic) subject so
thanks for taking the time to explore it. Put simply, long time
contributors get to know and sometimes even get to care about one
another like a great extended family. They also like to share their
new discoveries. When posters use their own names it is easy enough
for folks to decide whom they wish to read and whom they don't and
whether they have the time or not to pursue an OT thread.


One of the topics frequently discussed here is diet. Sometimes people
use what they assume is the historical diet of humans to bolster their
beliefs. Their logic often runs something like this. Humans have
strayed from the diet they were meant to eat and this has led to the
many "diseases of civilization" of which T2 diabetes might be one.

Now here is something that shows how imperfect is our knowledge of
what various early humanoids really ate. One hypothesis seriously
advanced is the evolution of the larger brain in homo sapiens arose at
the same time as a dietary change one that included a more plentiful
supply of longer chain omega-3 fatty acids. Longer chain omega-3
fatty acids such as DHA feature prominently in the present day human
brain and their is much thought being given to supplementing infant
formulae to increase their DHA content. A common source of DHA is
fish but a resource less commonly availed of these days is the bone
marrow of grazing animals. Several scenarios envisage ways humans
could suddenly have increased their DHA intake. One is that during a
time of extreme deprivation that almost wiped out all homo sapiens
shell fish found in lakes in the Rift valley became a food source.
Another is that humans spreading out on the plains of Africa acted as
scavengers using primitive tools to crack open bones discarded by
predators. Another is that some made their way to the seashore near
present day Angola and gradually migrated along the coast while
another group gradually migrated down the Nile and out of Africa.

Whatever. We know T2 diabetes and coronary heart disease is in part
an inflammatory disease. At least one serious researcher attributes
the epidemic of such diseases to the existence of a genotype that
requires anti-inflammatory components in their diet. That means
berries, greens or a source of omega-3 such as EPA depending on
location.

While the connection to Flores Man isn't that obvious here it is.
They had small brains, yet they lived on an island. On most islands
one can catch fish or collect shellfish and obtain the longer chain
omega-3 fatty acids essential for the extensive neural development.
So there is a puzzle. They weren't vegetarians if the burnt remains of
bones are indicative. It could be argued that since they were about a
metre tall they would have been expected to have a much smaller brain
than one third of humans. It is a matter of scaling from a single
dimension to three dimensions. The point is there is a new aspect to
the impact of nutrition on human evolution that has yet to be
evaluated.

On another level you might enjoy the topic as I have done, observing
how quickly people adopt the topic to their own interests. It tells
one a lot about how people react to the possibility of a major change
of thinking.

Hopefully some time I'll be able to help you with some of your
diabetes questions in other threads.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Jefferson
2004-11-01 11:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
One of the topics frequently discussed here is diet. Sometimes people
use what they assume is the historical diet of humans to bolster their
beliefs. Their logic often runs something like this. Humans have
strayed from the diet they were meant to eat and this has led to the
many "diseases of civilization" of which T2 diabetes might be one.
I was watching a program on the Discovery Channel on very large volcanic
eruptions about a week ago. There was this extremely large eruption
about 74 thousand years ago and some scientist have said that it
resulted a reduction in the gene pool as a consequence of the loss of
life. There may have been a reduction about 70-80 thousand years ago
that is supported by DNA evidence. Scientist have their hypotheses.
Post by Quentin Grady
Now here is something that shows how imperfect is our knowledge of
what various early humanoids really ate. One hypothesis seriously
advanced is the evolution of the larger brain in homo sapiens arose at
the same time as a dietary change one that included a more plentiful
supply of longer chain omega-3 fatty acids. Longer chain omega-3
fatty acids such as DHA feature prominently in the present day human
brain and their is much thought being given to supplementing infant
formulae to increase their DHA content. A common source of DHA is
fish but a resource less commonly availed of these days is the bone
marrow of grazing animals. Several scenarios envisage ways humans
could suddenly have increased their DHA intake. One is that during a
time of extreme deprivation that almost wiped out all homo sapiens
shell fish found in lakes in the Rift valley became a food source.
Another is that humans spreading out on the plains of Africa acted as
scavengers using primitive tools to crack open bones discarded by
predators. Another is that some made their way to the seashore near
present day Angola and gradually migrated along the coast while
another group gradually migrated down the Nile and out of Africa.
The brain size aspect of Flores man (women) is interesting. The frontal
lobes are the significant point. Considering that women usually have
smaller brains than men yet are of about equal intelligence leaves one
to wonder. Women's brains are also more symmetrical than men's and the
portion of the brain connecting the hemispheres is larger (even of other
species including prenatally).
Post by Quentin Grady
Whatever. We know T2 diabetes and coronary heart disease is in part
an inflammatory disease. At least one serious researcher attributes
the epidemic of such diseases to the existence of a genotype that
requires anti-inflammatory components in their diet. That means
berries, greens or a source of omega-3 such as EPA depending on
location.
While the connection to Flores Man isn't that obvious here it is.
They had small brains, yet they lived on an island. On most islands
one can catch fish or collect shellfish and obtain the longer chain
omega-3 fatty acids essential for the extensive neural development.
So there is a puzzle. They weren't vegetarians if the burnt remains of
bones are indicative. It could be argued that since they were about a
metre tall they would have been expected to have a much smaller brain
than one third of humans. It is a matter of scaling from a single
dimension to three dimensions. The point is there is a new aspect to
the impact of nutrition on human evolution that has yet to be
evaluated.
There is another aspect of humans involving migration and susceptibility
to degenerative diseases. The mitochondria which is transmitted by the
female is significant in energy conversion use and has been connected to
cardiovascular disease risk. Somethings like lactose tolerance or
vitamin D receptors are aspects of genetic polymorphism.

A few years back I participated in a study to link surnames with the Y
chromosome. I have gotten the preliminary results from this study based
on the DNA from the sample I gave them.

The following is the link to the professor who is conducting this
research: http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/maj4.html

Surnames, Genes and the History of Britain -
http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/NewWebSurnames041008.html

Figure 2 in this article present a world map of the Y chromosome
distributions - THE HUMAN Y CHROMOSOME: AN EVOLUTIONARY MARKER COMES OF
AGE - http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/JoblingTS.03.NRG.Review.pdf

At the microsatellite level I only matched 3 other men in the database.
http://www.yhrd.org/rcms/navigation/1202.html
One of the issues involved may be the number of men that have had their
Y chromosome information checked. My Y chromosome is not very distinct
when it comes to the haplogroup (R1b) since it is the predominant
haplogroup in most of Western Europe; i.e., with the English, French,
Spanish, Northern Italians, Germans, and the Dutch; described as the
those in the post-glacial reexpansion of Palaeolithic inhabitants of the
west.

What can we say? While on the surface something like Flores man seems
OT, it may not really be so far off when it comes to genetics and disease.

Frank
Annette
2004-11-01 12:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jefferson
I was watching a program on the Discovery Channel on very large volcanic
eruptions about a week ago. There was this extremely large eruption
about 74 thousand years ago and some scientist have said that it
resulted a reduction in the gene pool as a consequence of the loss of
life. There may have been a reduction about 70-80 thousand years ago
that is supported by DNA evidence. Scientist have their hypotheses.
Hi there Frank,

I don't know if it was the same show, or a different one, but I did see a
similar one that traced the genotype to a small group of people who still
live in fairly primitive conditions on the far south coast of Africa. It
has also been noted that modern man apparently went through a genetic
"bottle neck" some time in the distant past.

The interesting connection is between that and Quentin's observation re the
longer chain omega-3 fatty acids. The small group of humans they studied
live close to the ocean, and their main source of protein is fish and other
seafoods. Of course, it was implied that this was the habitat of their
ancestors, but the reasons for this assumption is either something I do not
recall from that one viewing of the show, or was not clearly explained. My
memory is not what it never was, anyway.

Now that the human genes have been mapped, it has opened up a whole new area
of investigation into many fields regarding our metabolism and origins, to
mention just a couple. There will be speculations, and lots of hypotheses,
but NTL, it is surely and interesting and exciting time for many scientists,
from all areas of research.

I just bet there will be a few surprises along the way. Whether we like
them or not.

BTW, speaking of the X and Y chromosomes, and mitochondria, wasn't there
some evidence that in all women, a common primitive mitochondira that is
still present indicates a "single" common ancestor? Adam and Eve may really
have existed, albeit a lot further in the past than is commonly believed by
those who subscribe to this particular origin of the human race.

I do wonder what THEY ate, and why a gene that predisposes one to diabetes
was retained in some, as being advantageous to species survival.

Not so OT.

Annette
None Given
2004-11-01 14:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Annette
BTW, speaking of the X and Y chromosomes, and mitochondria, wasn't there
some evidence that in all women, a common primitive mitochondira that is
still present indicates a "single" common ancestor? Adam and Eve may really
have existed, albeit a lot further in the past than is commonly believed by
those who subscribe to this particular origin of the human race.
I do wonder what THEY ate, and why a gene that predisposes one to diabetes
was retained in some, as being advantageous to species survival.
I would think that they were so active that they would have died from
something else before diabetes becoming a major problem for them. As long
as they had already reproduced before succumbing it would be no more
advantageous or disadvantageous than red hair.
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 17:30:41 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Annette
I do wonder what THEY ate, and why a gene that predisposes one to diabetes
was retained in some, as being advantageous to species survival.
Not so OT.
Annette
G'day G'day Annette,

A suggestion I read many, many years ago and which now be thoroughly
debunked is that in times of starvation T2 diabetes gives some
improvement in survival chances. Some glucose makes it to the brain
and those with the genes are the last ones left thinking.

It might not be true but hey, it let's us laugh briefly at ourselves.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Chris Malcolm
2004-11-02 11:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Annette
I do wonder what THEY ate, and why a gene that predisposes one to diabetes
was retained in some, as being advantageous to species survival.
A suggestion I read many, many years ago and which now be thoroughly
debunked is that in times of starvation T2 diabetes gives some
improvement in survival chances. Some glucose makes it to the brain
and those with the genes are the last ones left thinking.
What is taken seriously is that insulin resistant pre-diabetics are
good at putting on the weight in times of plenty, so if times of
plenty alternate with times of serious starvation, the fat insulin
resisters survive on their fat reserves while others die, and the
repeated starvations arrest their progression to T2 diabetes. In
populations subject to repeated episodes of serious starvation higher
proportions of T2 diabetics are found when those populations shift to
modern Western diet and lifestyle.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Quentin Grady
2004-11-03 08:35:37 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Chris Malcolm
What is taken seriously is that insulin resistant pre-diabetics are
good at putting on the weight in times of plenty, so if times of
plenty alternate with times of serious starvation, the fat insulin
resisters survive on their fat reserves while others die, and the
repeated starvations arrest their progression to T2 diabetes. In
populations subject to repeated episodes of serious starvation higher
proportions of T2 diabetics are found when those populations shift to
modern Western diet and lifestyle.
G'day G'day Chris,

That makes sense.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
VBH
2004-11-02 21:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
This post not CC'd by email
Post by Annette
I do wonder what THEY ate, and why a gene that predisposes one to diabetes
was retained in some, as being advantageous to species survival.
Not so OT.
Annette
G'day G'day Annette,
A suggestion I read many, many years ago and which now be thoroughly
debunked is that in times of starvation T2 diabetes gives some
improvement in survival chances. Some glucose makes it to the brain
and those with the genes are the last ones left thinking.
It might not be true but hey, it let's us laugh briefly at ourselves.
Best wishes,
Gretchen Becker was still mentioning something like it in the edition
released earlier this year, so I would guess there is still some mileage
in it - assuming of course that she checked it rather than recycling.

We might find out by 2050 if the ice caps go, as suggested by a report
out in the news today.
--------------------
VBH
T2/UK/A1c 5.8/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03
Sleepyman
2004-11-04 00:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by VBH
Gretchen Becker was still mentioning something like it in the edition
released earlier this year, so I would guess there is still some mileage
in it - assuming of course that she checked it rather than recycling.
We might find out by 2050 if the ice caps go, as suggested by a report
out in the news today.
--------------------
VBH
T2/UK/A1c 5.8/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03
I saw the same thing. Too bad our '4 more years' doesn't believe there
is enough data to conclude there *is* any global warming. But it could
all be part of Revelations where the poisoned air killing the Not
Saved, could be one of the signs that Gods wrath is imminent. What
fools these mortals be.

Sleepy

-------------------------------------
Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Karl Marx
-------------------------------------
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 17:16:30 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 06:28:30 -0500, Jefferson
Post by Jefferson
Post by Quentin Grady
One of the topics frequently discussed here is diet. Sometimes people
use what they assume is the historical diet of humans to bolster their
beliefs. Their logic often runs something like this. Humans have
strayed from the diet they were meant to eat and this has led to the
many "diseases of civilization" of which T2 diabetes might be one.
I was watching a program on the Discovery Channel on very large volcanic
eruptions about a week ago. There was this extremely large eruption
about 74 thousand years ago and some scientist have said that it
resulted a reduction in the gene pool as a consequence of the loss of
life. There may have been a reduction about 70-80 thousand years ago
that is supported by DNA evidence. Scientist have their hypotheses.
G'day G'day Jefferson,

With the world population of humans growing exponentially it is hard
to imagine a time when it was small and the fluctuations would have
had highly significant impacts on what DNA remained in the gene pool.
Humans are after all a member of one of the least successful families,
hominids. Over 98% of them perished and left only their bones as
reminders of how big the family once was.

One question that intrigued people was why populations of indigenous
people were so prone to T2 diabetes. Then someone thought to ask a
more intelligent question ie how come Europeans suffered less from T2
diabetes than the indigenous folks who were experiencing problems when
they took up the European diet. Put simply Europeans must at some
time have experienced heavy selection pressure to be able to tolerate
the diet that is now problematic for others. Ice ages in Europe
probably did it. I still find it hard to accept that at one time there
was an elephant happily living in Hertfordshire, presumably with
plenty of friends till she got stuck in the river mud and drowned.
Today's climate gives some illusion of steadiness that isn't as real
as it seems over the long haul.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Quentin Grady
2004-11-01 17:25:30 UTC
Permalink
This post not CC'd by email
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 06:28:30 -0500, Jefferson
Post by Jefferson
There is another aspect of humans involving migration and susceptibility
to degenerative diseases. The mitochondria which is transmitted by the
female is significant in energy conversion use and has been connected to
cardiovascular disease risk. Somethings like lactose tolerance or
vitamin D receptors are aspects of genetic polymorphism.
A few years back I participated in a study to link surnames with the Y
chromosome. I have gotten the preliminary results from this study based
on the DNA from the sample I gave them.
The following is the link to the professor who is conducting this
research: http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/maj4.html
Surnames, Genes and the History of Britain -
http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/NewWebSurnames041008.html
Figure 2 in this article present a world map of the Y chromosome
distributions - THE HUMAN Y CHROMOSOME: AN EVOLUTIONARY MARKER COMES OF
AGE - http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/JoblingTS.03.NRG.Review.pdf
At the microsatellite level I only matched 3 other men in the database.
http://www.yhrd.org/rcms/navigation/1202.html
One of the issues involved may be the number of men that have had their
Y chromosome information checked. My Y chromosome is not very distinct
when it comes to the haplogroup (R1b) since it is the predominant
haplogroup in most of Western Europe; i.e., with the English, French,
Spanish, Northern Italians, Germans, and the Dutch; described as the
those in the post-glacial reexpansion of Palaeolithic inhabitants of the
west.
What can we say? While on the surface something like Flores man seems
OT, it may not really be so far off when it comes to genetics and disease.
Frank
G'day G'day Frank,

That looks fascinating.
Something to book mark for when I have more time.

While some refer to diabetes as an epidemic, in New Zealand it truly
is amongst our Pasifika population. From mDNA and Y chromosomes it
has been possible to follow their migrations across the Pacific. The
women we know traveled from Asia and went for ever Eastward. Did the
men make it to South Africa (it appears they did) and more importantly
did they make it back? These are the questions. What comes out of
this is that the population appears to have had just two mitochondrial
eves from whom every one of them received their mDNA. (In Europe
there were seven that made it through the ice age)

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Alan
2004-11-02 05:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quentin Grady
Post by Quentin Grady
G'day G'day Folks,
Apparently the remains six specimens of a close relative
of humans
Did it have diatetes? In case you didn't know it, this is a
group about diabetes. OH, you did know it! You just see this
group as an open forum for people WITH diabetes so you posted
something; how cute.
K
*sigh*
K is for Killfile.
Cheers, Alan
--
Nan Eklund
2004-11-02 20:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kromagnan
group as an open forum for people WITH diabetes
Exactly. It's an open forum for our worries, interests, ideas, experiences.
We do have other parts of the body working - like brains.
Nan, Type 2 since 1990 or so
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...